I suppose thats the rub isn't it? "It seems" & "I think" are statements I often hear from the folks that really haven't had to make a serious reality check in their lives. I don't mean it as a slam, I know for a fact that ease and comfort kills spirituality.

The Christian faith got big because of suffering, thats something you can't ignore. I've read that even popular atheists admit that their viewpoint is most popular in the wealthy crowd.

I've heard my religion called a "crutch" and I don't have a problem with that. I openly admit that my flawed condition requires the use of a crutch to stand under the weight of my problems.

And I could just as easily turn around this completely unsubstantiated claim with another equally invalid one by saying that this is only so because, as it happens, the rich tend to be the most intelligent.

A brief look at church history would prove you wrong.
Annie Johnston Flint is a great example of a person who loses everything yet her faith in God increased.
Annie Johnson Flint's Biography
Do you have an example of a resolute individual who strove through equal adversity without faith in a God?



Try some volunteer work to get a different perspective. Visit a nursing home or a homeless shelter and clock in some time. I did, it helps.

Good for you. I'm glad you found what fills your hole of emptiness and loneliness.

Some of us don't have that hole, see.

You're admitting that Jesus is just a hole-filler. That's awesome in so many ways, it hurts.

I've been through a living fucking HELL. Do not tell me I haven't suffered in life, as you have no idea what I've been through.

I guarantee you that I have a HELL of a lot more experience with pain than you can fucking IMAGINE.

And you know what I do? I suck it up and move the fuck on. It's not being a bad ass. It's called dealing with reality. You can't cry all day and pity yourself because you've fallen on bad times. You don't need to reach out and find an imaginary person to carry the load with you.

You throw the load on your back, and you haul it up the mountain by yourself. It's no one's burden but your own. Be a man. Stop pushing your problems on things like Jesus. That's cowardly.

Eventually, you'll get to the top of the mountain. I'd rather know I climbed the mountain on my own and by my own will, thanks.

You're an ass, you know that? Take your prayer and shove it, you patronizing prick.

I've been through more than you can dream of living through. I've had to face the metaphoric "demons" straight-on, in both my family and elsewhere. I'm a STRONGER person for it. I'm not a sniveling little brat who can't deal with her with reality.

I face the music that life plays. I don't try to hide from it.

You know, for future reference:

It's incredibly, incredibly offensive when you shit on people who don't believe in what you believe. ESPECIALLY when you condescend by implying you'll pray for whomever, and imply you hope for their "enlightenment."

You should probably work on that. I'm not telling you that I hope one day you'll find that there is nothing after death, or whatever.

You don't know jack shit about atheists and agnostics. But I DO hope that one day, you decide to take your head out of your ass and start THINKING.

Isn't religion supposed to be about love and acceptance? What is this bullshit? Pull your god damn self-righteous head out of your ass and think for a moment here. As if you're the ONLY person in the world to "find god." Why can't you just accept the fact that other people may not share the same views you do? When you start patronizing us and looking down at us, YOU look like the asshole.

Fuck you buddy. Seriously.

By the way, when you die, you simply rot in the ground. Nothing more. Don't believe me? Kill yourself.

Thanks to Devo, I just caught this.

You are one HELL of an individual, LordSword.

Do you really think that non-Christians don't contribute their time to communities or volunteer services? Man o man, are you living in the dark.

I go out of my way to help people - those I know, AND strangers. I promise you I have "donated" more time to strangers and efforts which do not benefit me at all more than your average Christian.

Who the hell do you think you are to make such awful, sweeping generalizations? You're UN.BE.LIEVABLE. You should be ashamed of yourself, as a Christian.

RR, what is that from?? I think I recognize it. I am sure you're trolling me, but hey.

Isn't this LordSwords guy the one who thinks people who aren't religious can't depend on the support and love of their family, and that jews don't find solace in their religious books?

gues so.

fucking :jokemode: over here.

Seinfeld, I think.

Right?

Well lets see...common sense perhaps? Refer to Occham's razor. DO NOT UNNECESSARILY PROMOTE THE IDEAL OF GOD WITHOUT PROBABLE FUCKING CAUSE. Do you see God? Cuz I must admit, I sure as fuck don't.

There. Is that plain enough for you? Yes. Common sense > God.

The evidence for a god is about as strong as the evidence proving there is no god. It's a personal choice; please treat it as such.

It's also a personal choice to believe in the tooth fairy. I think you well enough understand that some 'personal choices' are more feasible than others based upon the specifics of reality. Of course we can't disprove God, but only b/c it probably doesn't exist in the first place. Therein lies the rub.

If there is no way to prove or disprove something, how can we determine its legitimacy? In my eyes, its just as valid to believe in the tooth fairy as it is to believe in a supreme being.

Gonna start bringing in the solipsism.

While that may seem to be true or at least reasonable, it can be fairly misleading. Why is that? B/c it only accounts for the infinite possibilities of the imagination, not something that tangibly exists in any empirical sense.

By all definitions, God is beyond the reach of our presence and therefore indefinable and incalculable.

If something doesn't exist and there is no evidence supporting that it ever did, then clearly the material probability, in this case God, is 'in absence'. So I am not quite sure how to take your comment...

If you are referring to dissolution of evidence due to erosion of artifacts over long stretches of time, and the confusion that it presents in determining historical credibility on things such as the FORMER presence and customs of ancient civilization, then I would agree. Of course, this is easier to consider by the fact that many aspects of civilization are inherent and on-going, such as a belief in deities.

However, if we have absolutely no tangible evidence of something (and I don't rightly believe that God's introduction in the 'old testament' is an irrefutable source of evidence to draw upon), it makes the argument in favour of it a lot less convincing.

If something does not manifest in the here and now, then it clearly does not exist in the here and now. That is not to say that it didn't exist at one time...

That being sad, the idea that God exists/has existed/will exist seems HIGHLY unlikely and furthers itself to the principle that God isn't an invention of himself but conveniently enough, mankind.

Jesus H. Christ you're dense.

You, on the other hand, are brilliant. I've always said so to everybody I know and now is no different. Kudos to you.

While I am inclined to just go ahead and believe anything you say, perhaps you would care to elaborate? What part of my statement were you unable to come to grips with?

The whole F**ing thing you douche. RainMan, I've read through most of your comments, and it seems to me like you aren't even debating anymore. Your just trying to get shits and giggles about playing the devil's advocate to anything anyone says. It's to the point where you're coming off as a complete idiot. How about just shutting up for awhile until you have something intelligent to say.


As for your comment of "there is no evidence, so that means he's not there". Thats complete bullshit. There is as much evidence proving that there is a god as there is evidence proving that there is NO god. Neither sets of evidence are 100% concrete. So why continue arguing? Whatever argument you think your partaking in isn't winnable. No amount of stupidity uttered from your mouth will make anyone go "Hey RainMan, you know what?! You're absolutely right. You win!" So just stop being such a douche. We understand, you don't believe in God, you find him to be a waste of time and a cop out.

As for those who consider believing in God to be a cop out from real life problems. I highly disagree. I myself am a believer, so obviously I'm a little biased. But putting faith is something that might or might not be "make believe" is by know means a cop out. It's a cop out if you simply pray to God for him to make your life better, and then you simply do nothing. But for lots of christians, they ask for his help, not for his divine intervention. It's not simply about turning to God only when you have problems. He's supposed to be a friend, a source of guidance and in some sense, an imaginary but not so imaginary friend. Someone you can talk to, confide in, etc etc.

People who follow solely the bible are retards. The bible is a set of guidelines for living a righteous life. It was written 2000 years ago. Many of the things it tells you to do aren't applicable in today's society per say. However, the ideas behind the suggested morals and principals still apply. Thou shalt not steal and so on and so forth. Even if one doesn't believe in what the bible tells about God, Jesus and who they were. You can still get some handy advice for real life situations. So before anyone starts bashing the bible, make sure you've read most of it. Know what's in it.

Well, thats enough of my rant. Also RainMan, God could kick the tooth fairy's ass any day.

First of all you've committed a logical fallacy. It cannot be the case that God does and does not exist. Therefore it cannot not simply be a matter of personal choice or faith. This violates the law of noncontradiction. If 50% of us believe in God and God does not exist, then it logically entails that 50% of us believe a false proposition.

Secondly, there are literally dozens of specific sciences that are as close as we're going to get which prove there is no God. The evidence in many cases which support our naturalistic understanding of the universe is overwhelming. Even Israeli archeology has not managed to find a single shard left by our ancestors' 40 year trek through the desert. With regards to certainty we can be as close as makes no difference that there was no exile and there was no wandering. There is not a shred of evidence in support of religion or the existence of god. The best you can achieve to prove the existence of God is to infer him from an apparent harmony in the arrangements. This is an extremely weak argument which has been refuted time and time again. You also have the problem of evil to account for. Then again religion has a great deal of explaining which it cannot do.

Uh, see, I think what he is saying that NEITHER camp can provide conclusive proof of their belief or reason for disbelief.

Therefore, it is left to personal interpretation.

Religion shouldn't be interpreted like a mathematical formula. It's more of an interpretation of a piece of art. There is no "right" or "wrong" when you step back, simply because there's no evidence either way.

Religion is an opinion. Not a proposal for federal funds, here.

Again, I think you're reading religion in a really...awkward light. It's just my opinion, and whatever works for you is what you should stick to.

I'm not talking about scripture, texts, and myths. I am saying that religion (no matter which) is more about the human condition, and not science.

If you want to dissect your personal belief/non-belief like it's a carcass on a table, go for it. But understand not everyone views it like you do.

The problem starts when one camp starts pointing fingers at another camp. Or when the recruiting starts.

And what evidence is this that disproves the existence of God? Do you have any sources to back yourself up? Or are you blindly saying things out of your ass.

I in fact have done alot of research about this stuff. Reading up about this stuff is the same as reading all this stuff in this thread. It just goes back and forth and the argument never ends.

Supporters of Intelligent Design's main theory is that the world must have been created because all the organism, ecosystems etc etc are far to complex and complicated to have happened through random chance and evolution

More and more scientists, although they still reject intelligent design, are leaning away from the theory of evolution as well.

Darwin himself, renounced his own theory on his deathbed. He died a christian.


I've attached a term paper that I wrote in grade 12 on this subject. There are sources and stuff in it. Have a read, gain some sources, and then come debate with something to back yourself up.

No, I'm fairly certain that absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

If you can't make the argument without relying on this, the argument is too stupid to survive. Sorry!

I believe this was a thread on what religion is to me, not a thread on religious theology and philosophy or lack thereof.