How the hell did god cause the holocaust?

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It's all because Adam and Eve sinned orginally, therefore we kind of brought it on our selves. :eagletear:

Pangalin, you just made your first post completely irrelevant. Try making a valid point next time you post, OK? Thanks.

wvlfpvp, if you're going to post a question to a diverse group of people, you should respect the honest answers. We all exist on the same planet under the same sun in the same universe. We all come from the same source, and we all return to it. We all have equal ability to contact that source and find the answers we seek.

Smelnick, you don't have to explain Christianity to me. I was Catholic until I was 14. I know the dogma, and I think it's Satan incarnate. We were created to be free, to think for ourselves, and to make our own decisions. To follow one patriarch blindly is to follow all of them, and that's not what we're here for. Don't stop believing in God, but seriously reconsider going to church. Any institution that discourages independent thought is downright wrong. You will be shown the true way by your inner voice, not some man on a pulpit.

Sir, if you think that the evolving nature of occupational gender terms makes Allah retroactively into a eunuch, you're even more confused than we already knew you were.

I'm sorry you don't know how English works, but this doesn't give you the right to talk down to anyone. Actually, being ignorant makes you LESS able to be condescending! Funny how that works.

As I said earlier: If he's truly omnipotent, then free will is an illusion and it's directly his fault. If you don't want to deal with THAT little thing, someone powerful enough to flood the planet is certainly powerful enough to shut down a few concentration camps, and thus God is responsible through inaction.

You just say that because you're a hippie liberal.

Actually, psychedelic experimentation and the resulting spiritual experience makes me quite unable to apply conditioned gender roles to the creative force that underlies the cosmos. It feels very wrong to me. I am very sure of this. No confusion.

See, neither is an androgynous term. God is to English what Allah is to Arabic. Same concept, same word. Arabic Bibles and Torahs use the word Allah.
If this is true, then your previous post is irrelevant.

Pot told you to be pointlessly pedantic?

LSD, dude. LSD. Herb doesn't generally induce spiritual experiences. I imagine that the amount you'd have to smoke to get there would ensure you'd never remembered any of it.

I hardly think that my pedantry on certain subjects is unjustified. Maybe I have Asperger's. Maybe you should bite me.

Being pedant isn't going to help you not be pedant.

Maybe you're a perfect advertisement for why people shouldn't use drugs.

Interrobang, I'll pay attention to any details I choose, and write whatever feels right. You are free to skim over the details that fail to interest you, and it's really none of my concern whether you choose to exercise that freedom.

RR, I would not trade the insights into myself or life in general gained from my days with LSD for anything in the world. The use of certain substances, with the right intention and ample research, can really heal and foster growth. On another note, I think it was Gautama Buddha who said that with right concentration, it's possible to gain powers such as levitation, clairvoyance, and walking on water. That's why I personally believe Jesus, if he truly existed (because I can never know for sure, he might have just been an allegory for the right way of being), was a Buddha, who simply tried to speak in terms that the local Jews of that time would understand, the same way Gautama spoke in terms that the local Hindus would understand.

On the topic of blaming God for the holocaust and other evils:
If the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is at all valid, then we have free will to choose from a set of pre-determined actions and outcomes that already exist, frozen in time. If a consciousness were aware of the whole space-time continuum, it would probably have the role of passive observer, since action requires time. Thus, you can hardly blame God for any inaction.

And yeah, that's why I don't think you can accuse God of good or evil. I mean, even if it is possible for God to step in, would you really want a being looking over your shoulder all the time, telling you what to do? As much evil might result from God's inaction, it's really a favor to us that we're free to do as we please. Besides which, for every event that's ever happened, it's impossible to predict what might have happened if things played out differently.

Example: The holocaust caused a fucktonne of pain for the world, and we can all agree that it was a great evil. However, it could very well have taught an entire generation the true value of equality and freedom, which might have led to the birth of the civil rights movement. Had God stepped in and stopped it from happening (which would be pointless from God's perspective, since we eventually did that for ourselves), things would be a whole lot different for us now, and the ripples that action would create in the space-time continuum are incomprehensible. I'm not saying that the holocaust was a good thing, but I am saying that if some omnipotent being hadn't allowed events to run their course, there might have been much worse results. Imagine if fascism had come along at a time when it could take over the whole planet. Imagine if it was still socially acceptable to have slaves. Such speculation is pointless, however, because we'll never know for sure. I'm just trying to illustrate that God would operate on far more data than we have at our disposal, and as such we cannot really understand God's action or inaction enough to apply terms like "Good" and "Evil".

There was a car accident a few years back, a father, mother, and their two young children where all killed, a family gone. That does seem like a evil thing for god to do, and I can't think of any 'right' thing about it, but it has made a lot of the hard-core christians in my area say things like "it makes you wonder if there is even a god up there"

Allow me to summarize, in a few sentences, the important parts that Phoenix X seems to be attempting to communicate but is too inept to successfully accomplish.

It is impossible to assess an act as being good or evil. It simply is, and God allows these acts to occur because we, as extensions of God, choose them. Vicariously, our choices become God's choices because God gave us free will. Our perceptions and reactions are individually unique, but because they differ, nothing is truly evil or good. Even acts of great harm may be catalysts for greater benefit. In this, "good" and "evil" are often opposite sides of the same coin.


All that junk about quantum mechanics is largely unnecessary in answering the original question. Schrodinger's Cat is an exercise in dual objectivity and has very little to do with evaluating the subjective nature of morality.

Sounds like someone has been reading too many texts and is attempting to codify them all into a singular explanation of our world.

They all went to heaven, dude!

That's the secret of religion! Dying means you WIN!

Then why can't all these fucking televangelists and religious lobbyists go ahead and win already?

That's nice. You're still pointlessly inept at basic communication. Your logic is basically that Englishmen retconned "God" into being the name of an entity that some backwoods guys in the desert referred to in male pronouns, therefore you should use obscure terms like "tao" in a retarded fashion. All of this is despite the words you're using having a different connotation than the one you intend them to have, and that "God" already has your desired connotation.

HEART implies LOVE so i shall use PUMP instead

Your quantum theory proves little. It assumes God is bound within the constraints of time in some strange way which prevents him from action. But then, who said action was ever necessary in the first place? We can assume God had a plan from the very beginning and charted the course of our actions and let multiverse quantum physics take over to carry out his actions. Perhaps all those other actions we can perform at any given moment are the actions of free will, but the action we perform in reality is the path God chose for us. Perhaps God just wanted us to have the illusion of free will even within the context of quantum physics. In short, it's easy to work around your theory.

Secondly, God controlling our actions doesn't necessarily mean we're aware of it. You think that His control would be in the form of telling us what to do, somehow one on one a voice speaks to you? Well what if His control is simply what we percieve as freewill?

Taoism is a bleak outlook on the world. An example of it would be the theory that civil rights movements require the death of millions of Jews to get kick-started. And that for every action of good you do, someone is going perform an act of evil just to counter balance you. What good is such a futile, stagnant view which turns the idea of progress into an imaginary concept?

In any case we both agree the Holocaust was "evil." However, I don't buy your theory on God being passive. As far as I'm concerned, so long as we assume there's a "God" we must also assume He allows acts of great evil to occur.

Just curious, but I was wondering what religion you are referring to?

Additional Spam:
In my opinion, man caused the Holocaust....not God.

Wait, you're a theologically liberal Christian and you care about this question? Why? Just pass it off as "invented" story or passable by a certain historical viewpoint and move on with your life.

If you were one who accepted the biblical canon as it is, I'd tell you that it's impossible (practically or in the general sense of the word) for that to happen, as God embodies both Love and Justice. He has a unique position as a bestower of mercy or an agent of punishment.

...That's just me (and Martin Luther...also, Augustine), though.

Okay, you know, if I were religious, I'd totally flip my lid over this one.

I don't get this at all. "I believe in my faith in order to cover my bases." Yea, I'm sure thats would go over well at the pearly gates.

"Do you accept Jesus as your savior?"
"Yea, so long as I don't burn in hell for all eternity - sure, why not!"

That seems so....opposite to the point.

I mean, I can see where you're coming from, though? You're TERRIFIED of this godawful place called "hell." You've been scared shitless into believing in some stupid crap just because you want to play on the safe side.

Doesn't that OFF THE BAT kind of make you suspicious about your god? He resorts to SCARE TACTICS to get you to worship him?

Exactly. Pascal's wager is bullshit, because any deity who would sentence someone to an eternity of pain for simply making the wrong choice among hundreds when he/she won't even give any evidence as to their existence or as to which is the 'true' religion isn't worth believing in, much less worshiping.

I Always thought that Pascal's wager was bullshit because it assumed that:

a) the christian god exists.

or

b) no god exists.

What if god only rewards atheists?

Come to my used car lot baby I have a deal for you! He had better hope his God isn't the omniscient kind that will easily see through his deception. False witness is something He gets quite cranky about too from what I understand.

I'm not very worried at all in coming face to face with God should he exist. Afterall, his fan club keep telling me how loving he is. Surely God can find it in his capacious heart to forgive me for just simply being honest and unable to find it in my capacity to believe something without sufficient evidence.