How is closing the bordors going to make America more secure? We have hundreds of miles of unwatched, unfenced, and unmilitarized coastline. Does it take a genius to figure out that security and illegal immigration have nothing in common given that small fact everyone is ignoring? Stopping one will not stop the other.

Oh well. At least politicians aren't half as dumb as both sides of the issue apparently are. Even though they're required to pander to both. I'm looking forward to having illegals working on ethanol plantations. It's almost as good as slavery. Almost.

Hey, that wall isn't being built just to keep people out. It could be used to keep people in too.

I don't think your question answered mine, but I'll be glad to indulge the rest of your post, since you refuse to debate with me honestly.

The security problem isn't illegal immigration, obviously, but it's a symptom of the more important problem. Illegal immigration happens because the borders are porous, and porous borders is a security problem because we have no way of knowing who is entering the country. And although it's impossible to expect to catch every single illegal entering the country, it's hard to justify an illegal population of around 22 million people without thinking some changes are needed.

I am debating with you, you just don't like my conclusions.

And the same is not true of our coastline? You're still ignoring the elephant in the living room.

Don't let me stop you from being paranoid though. This sort of irrational fear is what make's people that think like you easily manipulated.

I can and have justified it easily. Ethanol plantations. It's the oil alternative answer to our energy problems, and if we use illegal immigrants on the production of said ethanol then part of the savings will get passed on to you; the customer. All is well.

Coastal patrol is important, but it isn't the cause of the 22 million illegal Mexican immigrants living in the country. This is, as the news reports say, attributable to porous borders, and it wouldn't be out of line to suggest something should be done to correct it.

As far people like me being paranoid, something like this, illegal immigration, could probably be more justifiable in a pre-911 world than today. But considering the security risks the U.S. faces today, open borders are simply not an option.

Now, about ethanol production, even without examining your premises, your argument is still very short-sighted. Despite what ever benefits we might derive from illegal immigration in the field of ethanol, which, by the way, can just as easily be gained through a legal guest worker program, it's largely offset by the risk of a terrorist entering through the southern border, and possibly blowing up either an important building, population zone, major city, etc.

The news media is all-knowning and always right eh?

Desperate people will go to any possible lengths to get what they want. Some of the border areas they cross are lethal for a great percentage of them, yet they attempt it again and again. I wouldn't rule out any act of desperation at this point. Especially if we're going to make it harder for them.

(We're not talking about the cause but the means)

Not much has changed since 9/11 pal. The world had terrorist acts before 9/11. Even the US. Timothy Mcveigh was an American. You can't even blame foreigners with that example. We were concerned about it then, we're concerned about it now. Being paranoid really isn't helpful though. Should we seal off all our state borders in the name of security? To protect ourselves?

Maybe we should just be paranoid about people we don't know. Oops too late! Really, where is this all going?

This issue was raised to prominance on the grassroots level. The Senate/House would have quietly debated this and passed one version or mix of both. The Republican and Democratic Parties haven't been thrashing and screaming that loudly about immigration security issues. Neither has President Bush. Until they had to appease their respective bases for the coming elections. This appears to be solely an immigration issue on the political level.

Furthermore I can only assume they have access to more information then you or I about sensitive matters of National Security. Which is not that big stretch of the imagination.

The difference in benefits of a legal program and maintaining the status quo is considerable. It's still a different way to make everybody marginally happy. Since I doubt anyone is going to be completely satisfied.

So I'm a xenophobe because I expect to be able to communicate with my countrymen, what the fuck?

Don't you give me that diversity bullshit. These people have no intention of integrating with American society or culture. They don't want to learn the language, they don't want to assimilate into our culture. A melting pot is useless when one of the ingredients doesn't want to mix with the others.

Double Post:
This is a retarded argument. Are you saying that because a vulnerability exists on the coastline of the United States that we should not secure the border? That's stupid as hell.

"Yeah, fuck diversity! We can only have complete uniformity to be Americans."

That kinda message is what make's you a xenophobe. At the very least it make's you sound like one.

They don't necessarily want to stay here either.

I'm asking what good it'll do if a bunch of desperate immigrants really want to make it into the country, and will go to any lengths to get in. Why bother stretching the National Guard even thinner when the overall situation won't change any? Maybe you don't care about the troops but I do!

Watts, I disagree with you in regards to your statement that the situation cannot be changed, regardless of any actions taken to improve border security. If one were to employ unmanned planes to patrol the borders and then have national guard strike units that respond to anything detected by them, this would allow for a more secure border, without overly thining out the national guard as it could then be reserved only as a responsive measure, while the actual border would be one maintained by a strong presence of reconnaissance units, requiring far less personel to maintain.

In addition to this, as it has been mentioned how desperately people from south of the border wish to come to this country, I think cracking down more on employers for hiring illegals would also help in that it would undermine much of the incentive for crossing the border to begin with. When combined with a much more solid border patrol as detailed above, the willingness of people to enter the United States illegally would go way down, since not only would it be much harder, but the benefits of successfully entering would also be greatly diminished. While one or the other of these measures by themselves may not get the job done, I think the combination would be effective in stemming the tide of illegal immigration.

Stretched thin? We have reserve troops from every branch of the military that could be used for this. We have over 300,000 National Guard reservists, you can't tell me we have that many in Iraq. When they say they are overstretch they are referring to the fact that each soldier (reserve) can only serve in our current war twice (under the two operations), each time for one year at a time. The National Guard requires all soldiers to serve 2 weeks a year, just make those two weeks mandatory for all qualifying soldiers at the border. Even if only 20% of our national guard forces were used to protect the border on their two week mandatory drill, that would be about 1100 troops on the border at all times. These are the people that could be used to man listening/detection devices (i.e. UV's, ground level radar, etc) that direct the border patrol too exactly where these people are coming across, that would make far better use of our current border patrol.

The Logistics of the situation are not the problem; it is getting the political will to do so. By putting forward any plan that doesn't completely lock down the border and send the message to Mexico that we will no longer tolerate this, it is only going to encourage more of them to come... a lot more, especially with this guest worker and amnesty bs.

I think he called you xenophobe because you expect other people to learn the language YOU speak because it makes things easier for you.

Double Post:

Is this human...

I mean, is this something that the US wants to go on record as having used?

Don't even answer this question, NP. I know what you will say: "YES OF COURSE WE MUST MAINTAIN THE IDEA THAT WE ARE A SOVEREIGN NATION AND THAT OUR MILITARY KICKS ASS AND WE WILL KILL IF YOU TRY SO FUCK OFF." (rap beat fades in the background)

Having used what, unmanned aircraft? I don't see the problem with that. It isn't like they would need to be armed like those in Iraq.

I didn't say that. I didn't even insinuate that. Don't put words in my mouth.

All the more reason to stop them from coming here without our permission in the first place.

There's always gonna be someone who's gonna go to extraordinary lengths, but this isn't the norm. And putting 10-15,000 National Guard troops on the border won't stretch the National Guard thin at all. Furthermore, what makes you believe that building a wall, maning it with troops, and installing electronic surveillance equipment that allows for efficient deployment of those troops to stop immigrants from getting across en masse (which is all it can be expected to do; it won't be, nor is it expected to stop every single immigrant). I think you're just talking out of your ass here because you don't want the border to be secured, you just want these people to be able to break the law at will with no consequences whatsoever. If that's what you really want, just come out and say the shit and stop coming up with this nonsense.

If I went to Mexico and expected everyone to conform to the language I spoke despite the common language being Spanish, I'd be called an 'arrogant American.' But if I expect Mexican immigrants, illegal or not, to learn the common language of the United States - English - then I'm a goddamn xenophobe?

Go eat a dick.

Yes, of course, what the hell?

Why is it suddenly inhuman to DEFEND YOUR FUCKING BORDERS AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE BREAKING YOUR LAWS?!

I don't get you people. Every other country in the world is allowed to defend itself except America.

People don't need to learn english, though. As a matter of fact, it is perfectly possible to be a contributing member of an American society with only basic or rudimentary english. Janitors, cooks, etc and all sorts of other profesions where customers are no interfaced have little to no use for English.

Besides, communities that are united based on their background can thrive in unbelievable ways. There's no need to Americanize everything.

Ever heard of the San Francisco China town?

That would be militarizing our borders, as the post I was refering to put it.

That's something that you may want, but the majority of Americans probably don't.

And yet still, without the ability to adequately speak, read, and write English, it is impossible for them to integrate into society. They will always be an outsider because they don't speak the common language. The point of allowing immigrants into this country is to create new citizens, citizens who will be incorporated into the 'melting pot.' As I've said before, you can't have a proper melting pot if some of the ingredients do not mix with the others.

I'm not saying these people should abandon their own language or customs, but these people aren't integrating with American society at all.

I'm going to have to ask you to answer the question:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1631566.shtml

62% of the population want troops on the border.

Yet some continue to bitch that they're second class citizens. If you're driving a car with "I'D RATHER BE IN MEXICO" on the bumper, you're a part of the problem.

The long and short of it is that we may be seeing America become a dangerously uncomminicatable society. We're rasing an entire subculture of ethnicities who REFUSE to enter the basic mainstream of our culture and are creating smaller subdivisons, these illegal immigrants probably being the biggest form.

This isn't to say that these people are evil or mean spirited - but in the sense of communication, or standards of living - these people are not helping anyone but themselves. There was a time when you came to America, you came here to become an American, now when you come here, you come here as your country and fuck everyone else.

Fair enough. I was already under the impression that unmanned drones were already being used to cover our borders. It was the man-power aspect that most people seemed to be concerned with. That, and the fence.

While this might sound completely rational, if not a little anti-business this will never happen. Too many companies that employ illegals are politically covered by our political masters. Such as Hillary "Wal-Mart Board of Directors" Clinton. For good sound economic reasoning too.

No, I can't. I'm not going to either. What I am going to tell you is that these reservists are not full time citizen-soldiers. They have real jobs, and the majority have families and other obligations to tend too. Furthermore, it strains their employers and puts the reservist in a bad situation if they cannot get their job back upon returning from their duties.

I still think there's a better practical solution that make's good business sense and does not involve deploying the military. Beefing up the Border Guards personel would provide more employment for the border states. Yet still leave the funding and manpower of the National Guard to attend to other duties such as natural diaster relief.

You know what's encouraging them to come? Not the guest worker program or the amnesty, but a economy in the crapper, a stock market not far behind, and a currency ready to crash, and a country run by corrupt oligarchy. Unless you're telling me you wouldn't consider hopping the border if the positions were reversed.

That alone allows me to have a little sympathy for illegals as human beings. But that's not the only reason either. It make's good business sense from a capitalist aspect to have an unconventional pool of labor on hand.

Keyword in that sentence was "uniformity". It's impied as much when you were saying "I want everyone to speak English so I can understand them!". Not everybody that doesn't speak English here is going to end up a citizen. I also think you have unrealistic expectations from the integration point of view. Typically first-generation immigrants did not mesh well with the rest of American society at large. It was their children that became full blooded Americans.

That's exactly what happens. Maybe you nor anyone else here would not act in that fashion but most of the American tourists that Mexico sees is the "SHOW ME YOUR TITS!" spring-break type dolts. Think most of them speak Spanish? Nope. But people working in the services industry are typically required to know common languages. That's true there, and here.

You've got me all wrong. I think it make's perfect business sense to let illegals cross the border. Where would companies like Wal-Mart be if they were not allowed to use foreign sweatshop labor?

Your logic is faulted, Watts

As I have already stated, contrary to what you might believe or understand, ALL reservist are required to complete 1 AT every year, which means they serve on active duty for 2 weeks. Nothing would change for these people except for where they served their AT. This is part of being a reservist; all of us know what is required of us.

We are soldiers and sailors on or off duty. This is something that you might not because to understand but when I go home I am still accountable under military law, even though I am not on active duty. So when you say we are not a full time citizen soldiers, that is not entirely true.

The military is one of those obligations; otherwise they wouldn't be in the reserve.

This again is wrong. It is federal law that I am guaranteed my job upon returning from active duty as long as I adhere by the guild lines that are set up to protect myself and the employer. Employers know this a head of time, as all reservists are required to inform their employer that they are a reservist.

The border guard is not well equipped in this fight, they lack the technology and training that the military has access too. You'd be wasting your money if you wanted to try and beef up the border guard to the level that matches what the military can already do at a whim. That means you'd be wasting my and everyone else's tax dollars when a cheaper, more effective and sound plan of action has already been proposed... all for the fact that you don't like the sound of military on the border.

If you would have actually read what I wrote, you might have noticed that at any given time only have about 1100 troops on the border, and their sole purpose would be to monitor the border. Lets do that math, ok?

That means that at any given time only .3384 percent of the National Guard alone would be used to guard the border. Even if we quadruple the number of troops maning the border to 4400 it is still only 1.35 percent of the National Guard. This is only for the National Guard, there hundreds of thousands of reservists spread out in the other branches that could be used for this task.

That is a horribly un-American thing to say. Yeah you know what else is good business sense? Dumping toxic waste in the ocean, because it is cheap to pay the fines on that sort of thing than it is to actually deal with the waste. There is a reason why we have these laws, and blatantly disregarding them because you "feel" like they shouldn't apply is no excuse.

I think the problem with integration isn't so much on their part, though. What actions are we taking to integrate them?

I think when they come here they want to integrate, but then they're met with the invisible wall: racism, xenophobia, and other discriminatory practices. I mean, just judging by the attitudes on this board, I don't imagine they'd be met with much acceptance or anything that would foster willingness to communicate with the mainstream culture.

I think, Maxwell, that the attitudes on this board are a representation of people's frustration with illegal immigration, not immigration as a whole. Telling everyone that their frustration with illegal immigration is nothing short of racism/xenophobia is inaccurate, because one does not necessarily have to be either of these things to be against illegally crossing the boarder.

For instance, let's say that there's a family that immigrated to the United States legally, which for them would probably mean jumping through quite a few hoops. Now, don't you think that this family might be a little annoyed at the sight of other people cheating the process that they had to struggle through and just sneaking across the border? It's akin to there being two people getting an A in a class, with one studying hard while the other one bringing in a cheat sheet, but with both acing the test.

Sure, you might say that illegal immigrants are desperate people who take desperate measures. I wouldn't argue with that. We're all rationale actors in this political/economic game, who are ultimately trying to further our own interests. But by the same token, the same is true of the kid who cheats on his test. He might very well be holding down a job to help support his single mom and the rest of his family, while going through school. But should he get caught by the teacher while cheating on his test, this fact will matter very little. Because rationalized or no, cheating the process (be it on a test, immigration process, or whatever) is still a slap in the face of those who respect the process and choose to work their way through it.

My family came to the US legally, it took a hell of a long time. What, 8 years or something, and that's because my mom holds a doctorate degree. I think this is ridiculous, so I am not against illegal immigration. If the process wasn't so outrageous than I'd say go with the law, but the system is totally unfair and unrealistic.

You might think the process is ridiculous, but is it any different in other countries?

He just feels that everyone should have a free ride. Working for something like the privilage to be an American citizen is tooooo hard waaah waaah waaah. You want something, then you work for it. What you don't do is go out and fucking steal it from those who did work hard for it and not expect them to get angry at you for taking something that isn't yours and breaking the law.

Nothing ever worth having was easy.

Tell me, did YOU work for your citizenship? No, you didn't, asshat.

We should make it like Robert Heinlein's world, you have to serve in the military to be considered anything other than a transient nobody, even if you were born here.

I'm fucking doing my time, so that you louts can bitch about immigration.

Fuck you and your "earned" citizenship, you didn't do anything more than sit in your mother's womb for nine months.

Join the club buddy. I'm serving in the military as well. Being an American Citizen is my birth right, they have no such claim to that. If they want to be an American they need to earn it as every other immigrant before them did. Those people who just take something they have no right to have no appreciation for what it means to be an American. Something you should understand as you are serving our nation to protect the ways of our land.

How many times does it have to be said, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION, THIS IS ABOUT ILLEGAL ALIENS WALKING INTO OUR COUNTRY, BREAKING OUR LAWS, AND THEN EXPECTING A FUCKING HAND OUT WHEN AMERICANS STAND UP FOR THE LAWS THAT WE PUT INTO PLACE FOR A REASON."I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Immigration is this: "The act of immigrating; the passing or coming into a country for the purpose of permanent residence."

Not people coming here, breaking our laws, and taking jobs away from Americans.

Except that they aren't stealing shit, nor are they 'taking jobs away from Americans'. The handout line is also another argument that somehow gets lumped in there without much cause.

If you are against it from a legal standpoint, that's fine, and it's in flux. If you have a problem with it due to some moral stance, as your American birthright vs. having to 'earn' it suggests, then I don't know what to say. It's hard to understand what it is that you would expect of potential immigrants if it was up to you.

Ridan Krad, it has a lot to do with legal immigration as well. For one, this issue has sparked debate as to how the system might be changed. And it's also been a relatively accepted and sometimes thinly veiled means with which to argue xenophobic and racist points. But of course those doing this won't admit it, and may not even realize it.

"I'm not xenophobic!!1 It's just that I don't like having to deal those damned foreigners. The least they can do is act like I do rather than like they do. It's just a show of respect."