You do realize that Christianity cannot start without purpose, right? That Adam and Eve "story" is the reason why Christ came. Death through Adam, Life through Christ. You should stick with one religion in order to avoid confusion or conflict in beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Christian (although I did follow for two years), but I'm pointing that out just to let you know.

First off this forum is not meant for a debate, it is about statements on your opinions. It says so clearly at the start. However I shall respond in order to redeem my beliefs. I apologize in advance.

Beliefs are beliefs. And the purpose is what you make of them. To me a religion is merely it's effect on people. Therefore saying I'm Christian because I believe in the celebration of Christmas and other holidays for the feeling it gives to people, would be correct. This is what it means to me, it is my opinion and therefore cannot be false by definition. If your opinions are different than mine be happy with them, as long as you realize it is an opinion and is not right or wrong.

If you wish to continue the discussion I suggest we take this to pm's, as havening it here will most likely aggravate people.

lol, calm down, don't take this the wrong way. Believe what you want. No one said you couldn't. I was only pointing out certain elements of what Christianity was about according to what it says in the Bible. That's all it was.

lol, I would just like to do so without having to hear about it. :P

Instead of explaining why I think religion is useless, I'll instead provide a quote which I think sums up just how precious life, in the here and now, not some eternal garden waiting for us, truly is.

Unweaving the Rainbow: We are going to die and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they're never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place, but who will, in fact, never see the light of day, outnumber the sand grains of Sahara. In the face of these stupefying odds, it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. -Richard Dawkins


Many people seem to misunderstand what Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is really all about. Once you know it, it becomes extremely difficult to accept how it could ever be compatible with the design theory.

The design theory is a bit of a conundrum, in that, why does it help anyone understand the complexity of human life by invoking a being of even greater complexity? However improbable it was for human life to begin, it is even more improbable that a divine creator was the cause of it. The design theory is certainly attractive only in that we never see pocket watches designing a watch maker, but the theory fails to answer one very important question. Who designed the designer?

The greater the statistical improbability, the less plausible is chance as the solution. -TGD

Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is not a theory of chance. His theory is a way to describe how abundant simplicity gave rise, over millions of years, to a highly improbable system of complexity.

Richard Dawkins uses a helpful analogy: Climbing Mount Improbable. At the base of the mountain are the bacterial beginnings of life, at the top, humans today and other complex life. To jump up a sheer cliff to the top in a single vault is out of the question. Instead, if you go to the back of the mountain, you find a gradual gradient of 'evolution' inching its way up. All you have to do to get there is put one foot in front of the other (over millions of years) and you'll reach the top.

Whatever can be said of Darwin's theory, one thing for certain, is that it's a much more elegant way of describing human life than solving the problem of improbability by invoking the very improbable.

The story of Adam and Eve was only ever symbolic wasn’t it? Symbolic? So Jesus had himself tortured and executed for a symbolic sin by a non-existent individual? Nobody not brought up in the faith could reach any verdict other than, barking mad. –Richard Dawkins

If this is true, if the story of Adam and Eve is not an actual account of history, which is incidentally something some educated theologians would agree upon, it seems to undermine Saint Paul’s theory of atonement for original sin. And as you said yourself, as a consequence, it would almost certainly undermine the premise of Christianity.

No, I'm not going to use a different example. You say Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King Jr. speak to the ultimate meaning of Christianity. I could just as easily say that men of the Crusades speak to the ultimate meaning of Christianity. Both of these ideas depended upon scripture for their beliefs, but they certainly both can't be true. That is because they are both false in the same way; Christianity has no ultimate meaning to begin with. It is merely a book of moral statements, some of which are very outdated and some of which are not. This is not a book by which we live by. This is a book that we edit in order for it to remain within our worldview, for no other purpose than to feel some special pride in thinking that our moral convictions are backed up by an invisible omniscient force.

You're very ignorant to think that a scripture battle can be won through money. It's won through who has the most versus on their side. When we compare scripture, a very strong argument can be made pro-slavery while a very weak argument can be made anti-slavery. If God and Jesus saw no problem with it, neither should we. End of story.

You're either an idiot or you didn't read what I said in my previous post. In any case, I'm done with this thread.

Paper Crane, I apologize. I feel like this is my fault.

Apologize for what? I'm still smiling. Seeeeeeeee ----> :D
If I sound annoyed, I am not. It's all in good fun.

I get this allot when dealing with people about religion and it brings me back to the original point of this thread.
Religion keeps me trying when others give up. It means discipline, perseverance, wisdom and compassion when all that is outside of religion lacks such things. Above all, it is my source for humility. The texts I turn to remind me of my place when reaching out to others. When people respond to me in this way I am further humbled by the fact that it takes more than what I am to change someone else's heart & mind, so I turn to my faith in prayer for those that I come in contact with.

Religion is worthless - atleast for Christianity. Society had fun fucking up the religion I was born under and constantly altering the bible to "make sense" to the public. Therefore I've deviated from religion but I'm still a follower of God. And before anyone says "you can't not be in a religion and believe in God, because God is a religion" Jews don't believe in hell - go figure.

Why can't you do any of that without religion?

I just finally finished my read of the Book Of Concord. It's all that I can do to avoid a rambling, 4-post summary right now.

This thread is still alive?!

All I can really say that I have not said on this thread before is the major religions are quite decent, it's just the bad apples that can give some of them a bad name.

"Some of them"? No just Christianity. Everyone is A OK with other religions >_>.

Well you gotta admit, some of the ten commandments are decent.

The 10 commandments are in Judaism and Islam as well, as they all come from the same route. So Christianity can't claim it as theirs. Also there are things in other religions such as the Noble Truths and the Cause and Effect Sutra from Buddhism. When you look at almost all religions the have the 'don't kill's and the 'don't steal's. It's just a different way of explaining the same ideas.

...For the record, "The 10 Commandments" are not laws to be followed by Christians. They and the rest of the Old Covenant laws are Hebrew-specific.

That will be the extent of my debating in this topic.

Regarding the '10 Commandments', I think this sums them up pretty well.

For me the Christian religion gives me reasons to persist even under great stress.

One reason from my Bible provides the light in the tunnel when I am surrounded by those that say it isn't there (i.e. eternal life & rewards).
Very helpful when my life is crap. My Bible teaches that I can overcome anything.

Another is that my religion gives me reason to believe I have great inherent value even when the world thinks I do not. This comes in handy when you go to school and your the shrimp that gets picked on.

Finally my religion relieves me of the weight of determining ultimately what is right and wrong. By depending on many centuries of previous recorded experience I am less apt to make mistakes. A great tool when the advice you get from friends isn't very good.

There are many other reasons but these are the ones I use daily. I tried being a tough guy and pulling myself up by my boot straps but one day I fell so hard I couldnt get up so I turned to my God and things got better when I listened to Him.

Interesting post. Now try answering the question. =P

That's the answer to the question of why and how you feel your religion helps you to persist in the face of adversity. Now you need to answer the question of why you feel that you could not do so in the absense of religion. Please try to avoid quotes from scripture, if at all possible. The acceptance of scriptural messages presupposes the belief in the religion in question. You are trying to make a case to non-believers, which means that you should base your argument on the lowest common denominator. You must make your point in secular terms, if you wish to convince secular people.

It's the experience really. The experience of life without religion and having a father that was an atheist showed me how good things are with religion.

I was one of those kids that "had it hard". I grew up with poor drug dependent parents, the wife beating dad ect.
There was no model for structure in my home. Having a strong conscience I sought out structure to be all that my parents were not in an effort to be successful in life. After trying many sources, the Christian faith provided the basis for self assessment and change under guidelines outside of my own imagination. I thrived and found further growth from the faith in family building & leadership. My fathers lifestyle killed him and my Mom survives because of a rekindled faith that was surpressed by drugs.

Bear with me, as this is rather long/wordy, and I thought up most of it on the spot, even though it is true and/or what I believe. It may or may not be intelligible.

I was raised Catholic, and it was understood that I would remain Catholic and such. That's what my family still thinks I am. Thing is, I'm not entirely convinced there's a "God" figure. To me, it's a little like believing in an actual Santa Claus who really goes to every home on Christmas Eve, leaving gifts. The idea is nice, but reality as I see it doesn't quite support a God as portrayed by most religions. Omniscience and omnipotence and omni-etc doesn't sit well in my mind. Besides, if God created man in his image, wouldn't that indicate that God would have the leanings toward good and evil that man has? After all, it's God's world, and he could do as he pleased in creating man, so why not make a bunch of inherently good beings who are wholly good, unless God himself is not wholly good and this is reflected in man? Free will doesn't answer that for me.

To get back to the point, I have no bones with religion as a whole. Much good has been done and continues to be done because of faith, which largly promotes peace, loving thy neighbor and such. Those who war on behalf of their God seem to be not following what they profess to believe. (Ok now I'm getting sidetracked again.)

I believe in ideals being very near to being possible. I believe in being free to do as I feel is right, and you being free to do as you feel is right. I believe in everyone being equally a person, and I believe in everyone being their own different person, and I believe in treating everyone accordingly. I believe in creativity in almost all things. I believe in feeling. I believe in thinking for oneself. I believe in living a life which causes the least harm possible to any and all. I believe in living so as to do good where and when one is able. I believe in the simplicity it is possible to have. I believe in complexity of life and the questions life raises. I believe in knowledge, and I believe in belief. I believe in giving one's best effort. I believe in the importance of self and I believe in the importance of society.

I also believe I should stop typing now. At any rate, this is my religion, since it is how I try to live my life.

Rereading this topic, the relationship between political liberalism or conservatism and religious individualism or orthodoxy jumps out at me. LordsSword, political conservative or liberal?

Honestly I just call it a day by day journey. People have so many labels I just don't keep up with them very well. I never identify with any one group either like baptist, catholic, presbyterian, reformed this, ultra conservative that.

I just make the effort to take care to watch where I stand & if its with the wrong crowd, I'm gone. The wrong crowd=folks who flat out don't live the Bible with love and or ignore the main and plain what the book says.
Its tough knowing who to back in politics. I vote and go for the person who prays. I figure that person has a humble character and doesnt think thay are all high and mighty.

Careful. It's easy to be mislead in that way. Suppose that there was a presidential candidate who claimed to be a devout Christian, but was nothing of the sort in truth. You might never find out.

You'd vote for him, right? Especially if the other candidate was a godless heathen.