Yeah, but this is what following most religions is all about. You do things in your life on an everyday basis, but for the most part, it has to be within a certain set of rules.

It's actually human nature to want to do everything one can without consequences, to have no worries of repercussion at all, to be truly 'free' as one would say. Every Sunday people go to church, some are bred to believe that they SHOULD go to Church every sunday, and learn to enjoy it...but deep down I'm sure that a lot of the times they are going there just to kiss ass.

There's quite a bit of truth in what you say, although I would still shy away from the "kiss ass" phrasing. I think many Christians feel pressure to attend services. There's so many things that time could be used for; fun, friends, studies, work, yadda yadda. So why do they go? Some fear God (which plays directly into the ass-kiss stance), others may go strictly for the social aspect (which can be a good or bad thing), others have responsibilities to the church, and still others because their family makes them. The best reason to attend I suppose would be to experience the joy of communing with God and learn His way while in the company of fellow believers.

I totally agree that a lot of people go to church not so much because they want to, but because they feel they are supposed to. I see it all the time. I used to be one of them. But I realized that I was offering my time as a sacrifice that was pleasing to God and eventually it brought me joy to do so. Some Christians find that joy right away, others may struggle their whole lives. Additionally, the simple fact of just being there exposed me to teachings I wouldn't discover on my own.

A lot of things about the Christian faith stand in opposition to what is generally accepted in the world. Conflict, such as the one prevalent throughout this thread, occurs when Christians promote their way of thinking. The term "slave to Christ" is certainly not going to sound very appealing to the masses, but it is something that Christians actually strive for. It's corny, it's cheesy, but it's true that there is freedom to be found when you willingly abide by the Christian principles Jesus established. It's a freedom from the stress, anger, depression, and other pains any person must endure. ?! Good golly, it's getting even cheesier. :P *bracing myself to get flamed*

Jesus was most likely a Pharisee with major influence from the Essene sect. When we look at him from a non-Christian perspective, he never specifically went against the Law, but was a left-winger who struggled to fight against the status quo. (i.e. the Sadducees and the more right-wing Pharisees).

Still, I wasn't arguing about that, exactly, but the Christian interpretation. Anyone can read Jesus as a Jewish commentator in line with the other prophets; to convince people that he was the Messiah that had been predicted (not to mention warping other verses in the Old Testament to make him appear godly), it is necessary to accept the Old Testament as fact.

While I am all for reading the Old Testament (and the New Testament, for the record) with a figurative outlook, I'd question any Christian about which verses they choose to be figurative and which literal.

Case in point: Jews since before Jesus read the verse that predicts that the Messiah will hail from Bethlehem as meaning that he will be descended from King David (who was born there); the Christians created this entire story based on how a couple from Nazareth (Joseph and Mary) were somehow in Bethlehem when Mary gave birth. Clearly, they took the Old Testament a little more literally than the Jews, at that point.

But why?

That's what you're doing. You're saying "I don't really pay attention to the whole BIBLE thing - I just want to get on God's cool list!" Which, if you ask me, is not very Christian at all.

You're afraid of the consequence - you're not actually paying attention to the point. I'm not a religious person, but if I were, I'd be offended.

What does church have to do with what you believe? It's just a big building where a certain type of believer congregates to worship. Apparently, God hears you better if you're all praying at once in the same place?

Which seems a little weird to me.

If you want to worship your lord, you shouldn't need a building and an organization to do it.

You can commune with god (and I sincerely believe this of any religion) anywhere you go, no matter your company. At least that's what they say about god. And it's the nicest thing I can think of when it comes to a deity. I would love it if everyone for their own path to god, and found it without the "help" from a church or organization.

You know why people "fear" god? Because the church wants you to. It keeps you in check. It creates (no offense) people like you who follow the religion not because of the good message it brings, but because you're scared shitless of going to hell.

I don't know why you keep talking about "going to church." It has very little to do with actual religion and a belief structure.

Yes, of course it is. Because that's what you're taught to be.

I don't understand how this isn't transparent to you. You're pretty much admitting that the GOAL is to be a slave to Christ.

Yes, it's freedom. You know how? Because you willingly reduce yourself to a little robot.

You don't have to challenge yourself. You don't have to think about what is actually right and wrong. You don't have to think about morals. You only have to do what the church tells you to do.

They say ignorance is bliss, afterall.

It is important to point out before anything else that, if you are a (sigh) "True Believer", it's nice to find places to congregate and pray together. Even if God hears no matter what, merely for the sake of the "saved" praying together has its benefits.

More technically, although you seem to have been speaking broadly, I know that the Church isn't exactly extra-biblical. After the Gospels, the New Testament is wrought with the history of the Church, or merely references.

I get the social aspect. You want to chill with people who are like you. TOTALLY respectable. I'd do the same. (Until that group started asking me for my money, telling me how to behave, telling me what's right and wrong despite what I think of the Bible)

I don't think (to the best of my recollection) that the Bible says "Thou shalt attend church at least 4 times a month in order to get into Heaven." ((I know some of are you going to come back with "But the Sabbath!" which is not "church."))

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8...spouses3xl.jpg
NOT CHRISTIAAAAN!

It is simply way too difficult to get on the 'cool list' without familiarizing yourself with the bible. I wish I didn't have to repeat myself, but interpreting parts of the Old Testament figuratively does NOT mean I don't pay attention to the bible. Please stop trying to make it appear otherwise. Yes, I'm afraid of going to hell. No, I pay very careful attention to the teachings in the bible.

Yes. It is clearly written in the bible that God will pay more attention when two or more people pray in one accord. Church is not a building, it's a group of people who worship together so you're correct about the location not being important. However, fellowship is an integral part of Christian development. Good question.

I disagree, but this is based purely on my religious beliefs. I won't attack your ideals.

Yes, I fear God. But that doesn't mean I don't willingly do the good things I do. A young child may fear his parents and be motivated by this, but it doesn't mean that child won't also do things out of love for his parents too. My church wants me to both fear and love God. Without love I am no better than a fallen angel who has only fear. A Christian motivated more by fear and less by love is a Christian who doesn't understand God. When I pull over to help someone in a car accident it isn't because I'm afraid of God, it's because I simply want to help. I happen to credit God with my desire to do so. Of course, without religion, I'd like to think I was a pretty decent person. But now having believed, I'd like to think I'm capable of even more good.

Yup. It sounds lame, idiotic, and obtuse; i know. I don't expect most people to accept it or even understand why Christians would think this way. It really only makes sense to the devout.

I find it impossible to think of myself as a robot because I still feel passion and temptation. I think about right and wrong all the time. Sermons and bible reading aren't going to spell out the solution for every single problem. Life is just too complicated. I have to take what I know and constantly apply it. Sometimes I fail, but I learn and become better for it.

While not as blissful as I'd like, I still think I have a lot of bliss. ;)

I'd like to say for one second that I'm impressed you haven't taken the usual route by those who defend christiantiy by calling us a bunch of heretics and going off on a god spam, you have my respect.

Though to the above, in the quote, that god pays attention to those who pray with more than one person...that to me just says that as a single entity we don't matter, a single person doesn't matter, but a group does. Kinda sounds like the government to me >.>

This is like a battered wife saying that other people don't understand how much her abusive, redneck, tank top wearing, mullet cut husband loves her.

While it is anyone's prerogative to start a museum, and I'm not opposed to its existence, I think the term "creation science" is pretty amusing. No offence, but to me, that's the same as "middle earth science", or (since I can just see the outrage coming here - Lord of the Rings isn't as old and influential, etc.) "the scientific mechanism of the sirens' calls". The analysis of fictitious stories is literary, not scientific.

BUT IT'S NOT FICTICIOUS YOU HEATHEN GRRRR :mad:

Think about it this way. If Scientology exists, and we all know that it is fake/doesn't even matter, think about how easy it was for people back 2000 years ago to believe that a man could walk on water blah blah blah.

Sure, Hubbard was one guy, but get enough people to back up your claim, and soon it spreads. Hell, I don't even know if Hubbard actually STARTED that damndable religion, but hey...Following what went on with the whole "God" thing, only a few people have seen 'god' and wrote about it...same with Hubbard...yet we bash scientology because Tom Cruise is an active member. So what's the big difference?

The difference lies in how deeply rooted and accepted Christianity is in our society. Its influence (both positive and negative) on our very basic laws is far greater than the influence of a -so far deviant- group of scientologists. It's easy to stigmatize an out-group.

Deep rooted or not, the Bible is still just a ficticious account. I'm sure if there is a God, I SERIOUSLY doubt that he would enjoy having several groups made out of his image bickering about how one is better than the other.

Christianity states that there is only one God correct? And if anyone doesn't recognize their god, they are heathens and will suffer for all eternity. Well, if God created man in his image, that's pretty much saying that a LOT of what God is is rubbish, and isn't worthy. Know what I'm saying?

That is why I love Greek and Roman, even Egyptian and Norse Mythology. Sure, there was one God that started it all, but you have CHOICES as to who to actually worship without everyone going up in arms. And the great thing about it is, no matter who you worshipped, everyone went to the same place...though that place wasn't just black and white, it was an entire account of what good deeds you did and what bad deeds you did...and if the bad outweigh the good (and I mean seriously bad shit like murder for profit yadda yadda) Then your ass unfortunately got sent to the bad side of things.

Christianity: What? You don't belive in OUR god? Well shit...off to the fryer with you then.

To alter one of the oldest arguements against God - If there is a God, why does he allow people to argue over him? Either he doesn't exist and thusly cannot care or he's a dipshit and enjoys watching people argue.

Well it does have to do with the whole free will thing, but more importantly, if there is a God. Though I just think it's hilarious that most of the time it's the ones who worship him the most that are the ones probably going to burn for insulting him unintentionally.

One would think that acceptance would rule high up their on God's list of things he wants from Man, but shit...guess not.

And I do believe that if God does sit up there and enjoy watching people argue over him, then we actually MIGHT be in his image...I mean shit, how many people watch Jerry Springer or fucking Maury Povich?

YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER

OH HELL YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOOOOOI

There is a very simple problem with your arguement. You say that people are insulting him unintentionally by improper worship. Unless you have direct, proven contact with God himself - how are you doing any different than they are? How do you know differently than them? (Admitting athieism after this point only proves you may not understand what you're saying.)

It's not necessarily improper worship, I just think it's a little odd that most everyone believes that we are made out of God's image, and if that is so, having intolerance for another's beliefs, race, sex etc. etc. would be indirectly insulting God's image would it not?

It's just an idea, I'm not any different than anyone else, but I'm not a bible thumper either. What you're asking me, I believe, is if I know exactly what God's idea of proper worship is...and I don't. I just don't think a good way of worshiping one god would be to completely alienate everyone who doesn't agree with me. To me that would be more along the lines of kissing ass, which was mentioned above...brown nosing to get into heaven if you will.

Of course it's a fictirious account. I was just saying that it's one which is deeply rooted in our society (whether I like it or not). Alternative groups threaten this authority, which is why they become stigmatized.

My personal take on church (assuming you are religious in the first place) is that it's good for offering opinions/teachings/theologies you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to or learn about. However, it can be bad if you just take everything in and assume it is correct. If you never think about it, never apply laws of common sense, or indeed, what the Bible/Jesus actually teaches to what you heard in church, that can become a very bad thing. Consequently, I've got a lot of beliefs the church would probably find pretty heretical. I'm not trying to say that everyone just goes out and does their own thing, and decides what truth is - but I don't think getting your truth by being a "church sheep" is an intelligent idea at all.

The idea behind this is that we were created perfect, but then everyone is fallen through the sin of Adam and Eve. Now I know we can debate endlessly whether or not that account is meant to be taken metaphorically, literally, or if it's just plain fiction, but that's the explanation I've always heard, and it makes sense. God makes us in his image, (not physical, more the ability to think, create, etc, more abstract stuff) but we end up being disobedient, and are fallen.

--------

I don't think the Bible is very clear on specific ways to worship in a church setting. I think fellowship is important, but the how is not. Nobody knows what the idea of proper church worship is, but it's not like everyone is doing it wrong because of that. People just have different ways of doing things, ways that make them feel closer to God, etc. I don't think people should make a big deal out of someone who thinks having "tongues" in service is a good idea, or someone who thinks it's better to take communion every single service, etc. Whatever floats your boat. Some of things Christians debate about are quite petty and irritating.

The original topic, at any rate:
Creationism is not science. It's a religious theory that uses scientific methods to make it more plausible. As such I don't think it has any place being funded by any sort of public money. A creation museum is just laughable. Creation scientists have thought up some of the dumbest things I've heard of in years. Not to say I haven't heard interesting, thought-provoking, and intellectual arguments for Creationism, but I'd be afraid to go to a "Creation museum" for fear of busting out laughing. I'd be throwing a huge fit if my money were going to fund something like this. If it's completely privately funded, then whatever. Let the people who enjoy that sort of thing enjoy it.